I “virtually” ran into an old friend and trusted colleague the other day. I was networking with a prominent senior executive on the East coast and he referred me to Jane as the person who knew the answer to my question.
Jane is a educated, experienced and capable individual I had the privilege to lead many years ago. She is now an executive leading an important transformation initiative at a Fortune 100 company. In our conversation, Jane mentioned there were still a few men in the organization that were struggling with the idea of working for a woman in a leadership role. That set me back. I uncomfortably laughed and said, “Weren’t we done with that decades ago?” Having grown up with a working mom, six older sisters that could kick my butt, and now being married to an extremely talented executive who has eight professionally educated sisters, what Jane was telling me was not in my immediate world.
I’ve been curious how many men still struggle with the gender of the person in the leadership role above them. Is it more the leader and their capability or these external attributes that make up the leader?
What have you observed? Do you have ideas we can all learn from?
Wednesday, April 8, 2009
Weren’t we done with that?
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31 comments:
Sorry John, I feel this issue still exists today, although I think we are making some headway and hope it is a non issue soon for the sake of my own career. I do like this post and hope to gain more insights from those who post a response about their experiences.
It still exists. I can't say what contributes to this but I feel that it may be the persons surroundings, both personal and professional. If your experience with women has been in a non-leadership role, then that is your 'picture'. But leaders also have to be careful not to jump to the conclusion that gender is the 'struggle'. Go through the steps and make sure you really understand the root cause before defining a corrective action plan.
It would be nice if it were done away with decades ago, but it's still an issue. I suspect there are several reasons for this dynamic.
1. Women are socialized to be "nice." The pressure we put on young girls to share and get along make it harder for people to see women in authoritative roles as "nice."
2. I suspect the constant analogies between business and sports are to blame. During my MBA program, I thought I would puke if I saw one more case study on the intersection of sports and leadership. Not just because I think the analogy is overblown, but because (if you'll pardon the pun) the playing field isn't level. Sports teams are seldom co-ed. This means that men tend to lead men and women tend to lead women in the context where we pull most of our modern-day leadership myths. Men who see sports as the ultimate leadership experience have most likely never had a woman lead their team.
Before sports, our culture used military leadership, which has been male-dominated for millennia, as our archetype for successful leadership. This is the same problem as above.
3. Western religious traditions disallow female leadership. The same individuals who struggle with full workplace equality are either just recently allowing women to lead or still resist the idea that women are capable of representing deity in the public square.
I could go on for a while with examples of how society has slighted women for eons, and the sad truth is it will take a while for some people to get used to the idea of having women in leadership positions, if they ever do!
The good news in all of this is that when we look at generational diversity, Millennials (Gen Y) are much more likely to have had women lead in academic settings, which makes the youngest generation in the workforce much more receptive to female leaders than their predecessors are. Of course, this is on the average, individual open-mindedness may vary.
"Interesting John, I return to my military background as a Marine. There was always a question of just what difference there was between female and male Marines, especially as it pertains to leadership. It is sort of a complex issue, and my advice to female subordinates who came to me for leadership advice was this: Whatever you are is the best to be. Now being a Marine comes with a legacy of accomplishments you are obliged to live up to. I say the same thing to the male Marines. The obligation for you is to accomplish your own legacy of impressive results in the challenges of the day. The same thing goes for whatever group, unit, or class you happen to be a part of. If you are a female leader, then you should aspire to deliver results independant of the classification. If it is substantial, people will look for association to your class or whatever stereotype they happen to be thinking of. From there it is just a matter of creditting where it is due. If it is a credit to your female attributes then so be it. This is a principle of leadership I've used that I think goes against traditional paradigms I think. So there are still some men struggling with the idea of working for a woman. So what?! If those guys bring up the issue. what's a female leader supposed to do..get punked by it? It's got to be mono y mono. The underlying reason anybody is going to subvert leadership is because they want the power or don't want to do something the way they are being asked etc. The same principle applies for a young executive with a bunch of geezers as subordinates. You should take a stand that whatever you are is the best to be, and be a credit to the classification anyone throws at you. The first thing to do is to be smart not to make it an issue. However, when it does come up, throw it back in their faces. Lol, anyways, I was watching Simpson's the other day about the double standards in education. The funny part where the new principle has an all girl's math class and then asks everyone how they "feel" about math Lol! The question is not if society is past that. There are always going to be ignorant people throughout the echelons. The answer is in those who are past that and how they deal with the ignorance. Best, Anthony"
"John, I'm not at all surprised to hear this. There are still alot of "old boy networks" out there especially in the "Big 5" Consulting firms that shudder to think of a woman sitting in a Partner level position. In my experience the majority of women I've worked for in the business world have been solid leadership examples. There are always exceptions but certainly this is no different with their male counterparts. Perhaps a similar thing is occurring in the business world that happens in the military. Women didn't go through the same training, didn't have to get the same hairdo, had different physical requirements to pass tests, etc. All these things make it harder to accept someone as a leader because you don't have the respect factor. Alternatively the Marine Corps for instance has every single recruit, officer or enlisted go through exactly the same training. This insures that a mutual respect is held by everyone. So long as there is a difference whether it's only perceived or true the problem will continue to exist. Women haven't been in the highest places of the business world long enough for some executives to consider them having earned the respect and experience that the positions call for. Any policies that may exist in order to "balance" the hiring and promotion practices in a company will also exacerbate this attitude. Whether right or wrong, in my opinion the only thing that will bring solution to this issue is time. We also have to get away from the practice of making policy in order to fix a situation that more often than not will correct itself. These policies only serve to worsen the problem and therefor extend the time it takes to correct itself. Cheers, Alex Kersha
"It still happens. Unfortunately. I do think it's getting better, but from time to time I've faced similar situations. I think the main difference is that it is not as overt as it once was. The comments are more subtle, but the attitude still remains. Interestingly, I'm not overly offended by it. It makes me work harder to prove all those who thought I couldn't or better yet shouldn't - wrong! Kindest, Michelle"
"Good topic. I worked at Andersen Consulting for 23 years from 1977 to 2000. I found it to be very gender neutral, especially in my peer group, who was the leading edge of the Eastern engineering schools going co-ed in the early 1970's (I went to Lehigh University, which went co-ed in 1972. So in New York where I worked, there were many women who started with me and grew into Seniors and Managers on the same schedule as the males in my year and subsequent years. Interestingly enough, when I started in 1977 their was only one woman partner and one senior Manager in New York, and over my first 7 years I ended up working for both of them, and it worked out fine for me. I made Partner in 1988 with several other women, and many woman entered the partnership in the 1990's. Today their are several woman in top leadership posts at Accenture, the former Andersen Consulting. So my experience with woman leaders at Andersen Consulting/Accenture was positive, and I think it was positive overall for the women who worked there, and continue to have opportunities for good careers there. More recently, I consulted with a unit of Citibank that managed a part of their credit card business, and it was staffed by over 50% women at the VP level and above, and during the time I was there, a woman was promoted to EVP to head the group. That experience with women leadership and co-workers was also positive."
"I hvae experienced this many times over and failed to act when needed -- not any more. We all have battle scars, there just isn't any need to be disrespectful. Best to nip it in the bud quickly and as painlessly as possible."
"John - As the ninth of twelve children; six brothers and five sisters, teamwork was the name of the game. Chores, meals, we all "did it all", no gender separation, our norm. So - your surprised response to Jane's situation is a beautiful example of respecting people for what they do. Your world of strong, intelligent women was your norm. Your bar is raised and you expect that all women can be executively competent. Slowly the norm does change. "We have a black president" will eventually become "We have a competent, articulate president" (finally!) I also love the response by Anthony; to be only that which you are. Strong, competent, creative leaders have auto followers who see beyond stereotypes, as they are so engaged in the moment of collaborative effort and teamwork, they forget that they hold/held bias. Collaborative genius and energy will engage people and they follow without thinking. Who you are is less important when the job is getting done. If someone does not follow me, I have not done the right job in engaging them. Also - "Follow me, I am right behind you", is a great statement by author John Maxwell. When you don't try to lead or be the boss, people will follow your actions of competence and they become color blind, unisex, ageless and coincidentally - more productive and effective! When leadership becomes the action you take and not the chair in which you sit, it is amazing who will follow; don't tell me how, show me how! Nice discussion topic! Patti"
"I think Kathy is a great example for the modern woman professional. I've noticed some of her actions on LinkedIn and got the impression she's at the top of the heap. Patti, I have to say your comment was one of my favorites so far here. If you are going to introduce a concept of leadership in some organization, then how useful that would be to address the potential conflict of perceptions like that on the onset! To add compliment to acknowledgement, I hope you noticed I followed your lead in my own response. Best, Anthony"
"I'm surprised by the guys here who say that business is gender-neutral. If it were, wouldn't women be earning closer to a comparable rate as the men? Or holding more executive positions of power overall, not just at the rare exception? It is still a large problem, and I think the reason is obvious: Those in power (still largely the white men) don't want the competition, so they put up obstacles, whether they do so intentionally, as is often the case, or if it the result of more "unconscious" existing patterns of behavior and attitudes. I understand that out of the Fortune 500 companies, only 1% or 2% of CEOs are women. That doesn't sound like progress to me. I agree with Alex. Differentiation between genders does not help. This is why I strongly oppose the women-specific business groups that you can find anywhere, (Women's Leadership this or that, Women's networking this or that). By isolating themselves, I think they are driving greater distance and, although they may be benefiting in their women-specific markets, I argue that they won't make progress in the business world in general until they play in the same sandbox as those currently in power (again, the white men). I'm open to hearing opposing sides to this. But what do I know, I'm just a guy. Take care, Robert Hernandez Your Friendly Neighborhood Offcierge"
"My immediate supervisor (an IT Director ) in one of my roles, was an Asian woman. She was as good as any of her male counterparts or expat pre-decessors. I have observed a number of top women in the upper echelons of management. I can say I have observed no difference in the level of competance or the results obtained. The hurdles and obstacles facing women are undoubtedly greater, particularly in some environments. After working in a US multinational for 12 yrs, coming to Australia, I learned from articles and from the real world that the acceptance of women into top management is significantly behind the US and perhaps even some other countries, though things are getting better with more mentoring activities amongst women now. I have an interesting story. When I was not even working yet ( in the late 70s), women became branch managers in banks and there was even an entire branch ( of the Indian Bank - a public sector bank ) run by women exclusively ( except for the coffee boy and orderly !), including the cash handling functions like tellers, very close to where I lived in the then reputedly steeply conservative Madras ( now Chennai) in South India. The branch manager herself pulled the rolling shutters down when it was time to close up for the day ( she was the last to leave ) ! The branch was one of the most popular branches in the locality, known for its efficiency and speed. Branches like that was inspiration enough for a wave of women to enter banking, and even dominate the industry. India today boasts a very large population of extremely competent women in management. At management school again we had a number of girls in the class, and all have gone on to play lead roles in various sectors and industries"
"Perhaps it is a women from Venus and men from Mars thing. I think that sometimes its is not a problem with working for a boss of the other sex, but the individual boss. How many feemale bosses have ever considered male friendly policies? Actually is their such a thing? I was speeking to a HR officer who needed a HR assistant and to qoute "I did have a guy apply but we did not interview, he had a good CV, but men dont like filing and that was a big part of the job. Also I am not sure how he would fit into our HR Depatment as its all feemale."
"To Scott's point, there are certainly some women that make it into the higher ranks of even the most notoriously male-centric organizations. Personally I would rank Andersen/Accenture among those but my experiences there seem to be a far cry from Scott's. I would argue though that these few women represent little more than window-dressing. The percentages of male - female in top leadership spots is horrible. I share MIchelle's hopefulness that things are getting better albeit slowly. But making policy to force the issue is not the way to do it and certainly to Robert's point, the many woman-centric groups isn't helping either."
"Anthony, I think your final statement says it best: "There are always going to be ignorant people throughout the echelons. The answer is in those who are past that and how they deal with the ignorance. " It doesn't matter if you are female, white, black, brown, a dog, a cat, etc. There will always be ignorant people and it is how one deals with the ignorance that separates us. That being said, I have found that often times when one focuses on this type of ignorance, they tend to bring more of it to them. So, if you are a woman in a leading position, and you find that you are dealing with more and more men who have issues with it, you might want to look to how much time you spend thinking about the unfairness or ignorance of it. I have found that when it's not an option, (no attention is given to it) situations like this tend to disappear and in time, not even show up."
Working for a fortune 100 company I find this topic sad because you can see all the rhetoric of “diversity being a key driver of success” and a “competitive advantage”. Managers are taking training on what it means to have and embrace diversity in their organizations. We have a whole Diversity Summit which rewards leaders and organizations that are exemplifying what it means to embrace diversity and yet….when you take a look at the top level executive org-charts it is clear that the executive leadership is not walking the talk. If the top leadership of our company is not setting the example, how can they expect the rest of the company to change? It’s like they talk out of both sides of their mouths. I think it will take a change in generational leadership before we see true changes regarding this topic.
The majority of the office I work in is managed by Director and above level Women. I have no problem with it at all, but I can tell that some of the men that are on the same level quite obviously do. It is a shame, but something that we still need to push.
Next time your on the East Coast (NYC area) let me know I would love to catch up over a coffee.
I am surprised to hear that this gender issue is still seen in corporate America. Perhaps it is related to the size of the organization or specific to the corporate culture. Multiple times throughout my career I was a direct report to, or there was someone higher in the chain, that was female. This was never an a problem for me and I do not recall it being an issue with any of my colleagues either. And that includes working at a large defense contractor in the Seattle area where, when I first started working there, as engineers we wore ties to work.
"We aren't done with that. Also, remember that the country is getting more and more diverse and whatever strides we have made in America, there are still different beliefs around the world."
"I can tell you, I still can't get a chair that fits (executive chairs are all built for the male body, or so we are told) or a table that raises so I can work standing up. Little things, but still indicative. I am in a female dominated industry, yet the few men still make much higher salaries, and are given the new equipment while the ladies get the hand-me-downs. Good thing I know how to use an online catalog, I can purchase my own chair and take it with me when I leave. The challenge is in replacing my work ethic and skills. Probably would be easier to pay for a chair. ;-)"
LOL, I was just complaining about how small my chair was this week. Want to trade? ;P
Actually until the chair arrives, I am sitting on an exercise ball. I am guessing I would get the better end of a trade at the current time. L^3 bj
In my experience I believe the gender issue is still alive and well however, it seems to be very closely related to the age of the male. We still have male theory X baby boomers in the industry that aren't quite ready to retire and more than you would think are not about to change their way of thinking. They avoid participation in new company initiatives and certainly aren't interested in hearing about efforts to address generational diversity. The men with that mentality discriminate against young men that have come up through the ranks quickly as much as they do women. They look down on youth, male or female as not having paid their dues. I don't see it changing until that mentality retires.
I still run into people who have issues with people who are different; whether it be race, gender, sexual orientation or handicap.
You mention your upbringing, which is a prefect example. You were raised to respect women (sounds like you didn't have much of a choice!) and treat them as equals. Old habits are hard to break, in both directions.
As far as personal experiences, I can think of one: I was applying for a job with a financial services company. We had reached the point where it was time to nail down the specifics of the job. I asked the question "When my wife graduates from college and is looking for a job, would I be able to relocate if she gets a job elsewhere?" The answer stunned me, and I struggled to keep myself together for the rest of the interview. "Yes Bill, but let me ask you this: What job could a woman get that would be good enough to make you want to move?" Wow. I dismissed it as an isolated incident and accepted the job, but I kept my ears open. It unfortunately was not just him who had this archaic view of women and although I wanted to stay working, I could not work for a company like that, even with the earning potential. On the surface I said "that job wasn't for me", but it was as much the "good old boy" atmosphere in the office as anything else that made me leave that job.
Interesting discussion - to add my two cents, I think sometimes women can be their own worst enemies. Not to generalize too much, but SOME women in leadership positions make it much harder for other women to move into leadership positions, making the pool that much smaller. They do this for various reasons - 'pay your dues like I did' is common, but intimidation, fear and jealousy are also reasons. So, not to excuse irrational behavior, but its no wonder some men still feel apprehensive. They haven't had enough exposure to the cadre of highly-qualified and skilled leaders that they otherwise would had this woman-on-woman phenomenon not been present.
I think as with anything else, men fear/reject the unknown. And, as more women make it up the rungs of the corporate ladder, the familiarity derived from increased interaction will resolve this problem for good. I agree with Alex, the enactment of policy (and the resulting consequences) is no substitute for experiential association.
This is an interesting discussion! - Tracy, I do agree with you that some women make it harder for others. I was just discussing this subject yesterday. Sometimes you will see women climbing over one another to get to the top rather than helping each other. I think it may be that some women believe that there are only a few spots in leadership for women and so, as you mentioned Tracy, fear and jealousy set in.
Also, there is still an influence "out there" that makes men seem more credible than women. I noticed that at a recent conference. Each team member was assigned a specific presenter from the panel to report back on. The female presenters were not received as well as the male panel members - even by other women! I noticed this anomaly in myself a few years ago and so I am really attune to it now - in my own own actions as well as others.
I have been working on improving myself in this area for years. One book that helped was The 360 degree leader by John Maxwell. Although the content is not gender specific, it has helped me to look at myself differently - as a leader of my peers, subordinates and those above me. I'm not perfect (yet!) but I believe my interactions with others, specifically women, has been enhanced.
Kelly, I agree with you about the perceived "automatic" credibility that comes with being a man, and I see this every meeting/sales call I go on with my wife, Terri Wilson.
Terri is an accountant (not public) that has a very high degree of specialty with all of the QuickBooks products. She works as a QuickBooks consultant, and I sell her (in a good way *grin*). However, at most every shared appointment I have with her, the client/partner/whatever will spend more time looking at me and deferring to me, even if it relates to QuickBooks or accounting, which are not my specialties, and I'm very up front about that.
We've gotten used to it, I guess, but it's there...likely every time.
Tale care,
Robert
John, this is very much alive. I think the issue is more the difference in styles in most cases. One gender is very heavy into organization, labeling, ensuring you know their role and postion (very much touchy feely). Where as the other gender does not want the role defined, goes with the flow, will find something by having someone else look for it for them, will find a scape goat when given the chance and rebels at every threat or change (the other gender creates).
It is my opinion that this different housekeeping (style) is the real tension and drives to the source of the backwards comments.
No unfortunately this issue still plagues many industries. In recent discussions in a leadership class this topic was discussed and the perception of individuals seems to support that we are not done with this. My experience is that the leadership of the individual matters most and outside of that, external issues have no bearing on my perspective. I learned many important lessons from a woman manager early in my career.
Another aspect of this issue is that women generally have the outlook and ability to manage multiple tasks and see the big picture better than men do and therefore make a better executive. Gosh I hope I did not just perform a career suicide! :-)
About half the managers I reported to, from first line managers to E-series, were women and were just as good and bad as the males. It seems to still be tough for women but I see things improving. If the are skilled leaders they will stand out and succeed.
I think the gender issue is only what people make of it, women can be good supervisors or bad supervisors (it's just a matter of perception). I personally have a wonderful boss who is female, and two team leads that are men. I find that as a woman, in any company you have to excel and bring a higher standard of work to the table then the guys do. (yes it's true) I'm a very persistent individual to which I thank adding that word to my vocabulary to Linda Meeks because it you aren't you will not suceed in any of your projects. Leadership is not a male/versus female attribute. A study I read stated that it usually went to the loudest individual in the room, not the smartest. So in your next staff meeting call on those who aren't talking or trying to talk over others to get their point of view.
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